Sharpness vs Keenness as Described by an Old Solingen Grinder

Twelvefret

Forum GOD!
With all respect due, what's the point of belaboring this? That's no "newsflash". Said same in the [now-deleted, b/c pointless] video from January [which had 1300 views @ deletion] & in threads' posts nobody bothers reading b/c "TL;DR"

My landlord (sexagenarian native who doesn't know straight razor tangs from screwdriver bases but translated free) said it reads as Shakespeare would to a native English speaker today (thus open to interpretation), but came to the same conclusions that the book was saying to use two curved & the last dead flat was a no-brainer b/c the bevel (landlord said "edge", but doesn't know this shaving stuff, I believe meaning is whole bevel) will be so thin that use of flat last's worth the guarantee to apex the edge (bevel), and that only those three professions' practitioners bothered using rounded ones throughout b/c of that approach's difficulty.

Nobody cares! It's been discussed ad nauseum. Many forums. Always taken well. So either people reading it place value in some dusty old textbook for the profession with broken language, and/or what mfgrs say of their own wares, and/or what one stupid retailer says a mfgr said/says, or not. What really happens is they're just turned off from the hobby as a whole from the petty arguing, more than anything.

I believe you don't understand the tireless/unpaid dedication of those against it any more than us Americans (or anyone else coming in there) understands the tireless/non-monetary dedication of the Taliban/Afghan populace...I firmly believe (as I have since a teenager) all of 1/Afghanistan can gang up at those borders and try to come in there and change things and they'll lose, eventually, even if it takes 20/200 years. The same thing's going to happen here; they who hate what you're writing are not going anywhere and are not going to tolerate any outsiders, period, they'll die on that hill, and they mean business. Fall back, there's other theoretical concept hills to die upon to choose from that are more worthwhile.

For the sake of how this affects my family and all for something *I* was the one dumb enough in the first place to revive in the born-to-the-internet-era straightrazordom (against the extreme advice of the French, who - accurately - predicted it'd blow up in my face as they talked down the mindset of their largest buying segment), I'd appreciate it if you dropped it, everywhere. It just gets more unwanted attention as below's thumbnail (which I can't prove without police/postal inspector intervention but firmly believe is 100% b/c this topic & paid for/initiated by posters writing here & in all other threads). I'm finally getting a great non-shaving-related job, and then can finally not give one single whit about how razors are honed by anyone including our customers & let the tiny business segment of EU razors perish as it was going to in any case (my personal over/under is by 2030 there are only 1-person-productions of this object as new remaining in EU) as a nice 'side hustle'. For me, the 'hill to die on' was always only about $ / fighting as provider for dependents, but at last I can say with reasonable certainty that Earth will offer me other ways.

Just please, let them have their final many words (sure to come), and move on. Don't respond. If you've ever felt I was treated unfairly in all of this, just try to think about it if you were in my shoes, & how your continued discussion/belaboring's angering those particular unmentionables. It does not help me.

happy shaving

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That sort of broke my heart to read. So many thoughts and perhaps wrong on all, but we each make a decision on how to live and think. A book I read once talked about a good man as one who would rather die right than live wrong.

I’m sure there are many here who have family, small children, and as many challenges as you. I doubt anyone hear would want you to fail.

There is a saying, “well, well, well, if it isn’t the consequences of my own actions” . Perhaps something someone, somewhere should/might/ought to consider.
 

DaltonGang

Forum GOD!
With all respect due, what's the point of belaboring this? That's no "newsflash". Said same in the [now-deleted, b/c pointless] video from January [which had 1300 views @ deletion] & in threads' posts nobody bothers reading b/c "TL;DR"

My landlord (sexagenarian native who doesn't know straight razor tangs from screwdriver bases but translated free) said it reads as Shakespeare would to a native English speaker today (thus open to interpretation), but came to the same conclusions that the book was saying to use two curved & the last dead flat was a no-brainer b/c the bevel (landlord said "edge", but doesn't know this shaving stuff, I believe meaning is whole bevel) will be so thin that use of flat last's worth the guarantee to apex the edge (bevel), and that only those three professions' practitioners bothered using rounded ones throughout b/c of that approach's difficulty.

Nobody cares! It's been discussed ad nauseum. Many forums. Always taken well. So either people reading it place value in some dusty old textbook for the profession with broken language, and/or what mfgrs say of their own wares, and/or what one stupid retailer says a mfgr said/says, or not. What really happens is they're just turned off from the hobby as a whole from the petty arguing, more than anything.

I believe you don't understand the tireless/unpaid dedication of those against it any more than us Americans (or anyone else coming in there) understands the tireless/non-monetary dedication of the Taliban/Afghan populace...I firmly believe (as I have since a teenager) all of 1/Afghanistan can gang up at those borders and try to come in there and change things and they'll lose, eventually, even if it takes 20/200 years. The same thing's going to happen here; they who hate what you're writing are not going anywhere and are not going to tolerate any outsiders, period, they'll die on that hill, and they mean business. Fall back, there's other theoretical concept hills to die upon to choose from that are more worthwhile.

For the sake of how this affects my family and all for something *I* was the one dumb enough in the first place to revive in the born-to-the-internet-era straightrazordom (against the extreme advice of the French, who - accurately - predicted it'd blow up in my face as they talked down the mindset of their largest buying segment), I'd appreciate it if you dropped it, everywhere. It just gets more unwanted attention as below's thumbnail (which I can't prove without police/postal inspector intervention but firmly believe is 100% b/c this topic & paid for/initiated by posters writing here & in all other threads). I'm finally getting a great non-shaving-related job, and then can finally not give one single whit about how razors are honed by anyone including our customers & let the tiny business segment of EU razors perish as it was going to in any case (my personal over/under is by 2030 there are only 1-person-productions of this object as new remaining in EU) as a nice 'side hustle'. For me, the 'hill to die on' was always only about $ / fighting as provider for dependents, but at last I can say with reasonable certainty that Earth will offer me other ways.

Just please, let them have their final many words (sure to come), and move on. Don't respond. If you've ever felt I was treated unfairly in all of this, just try to think about it if you were in my shoes, & how your continued discussion/belaboring's angering those particular unmentionables. It does not help me.

happy shaving

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Nice toy. Is that what you are selling now?? It looks like you might get more use out of that black wiggly one, than the Convex Hones you try to peddle. All in fun. Enjoy your new wiggly hobby, Jarrod. :eek:. Oh, in case you were confused about the bottom photo, that is called a hone. Probably a very flat one. If needed, we could assist you with instructions on how to use one.
 
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Steve56

Forum GOD!
Thank you for taking the time to post. I’m now curious if they tended to use from middle toward the point when shaving others?

I tend to use as much of the surface as I can. There are places around the mouth and chin that I’ve even used two hands for better ATG control.
Well I was going through the image gallery looking for something else and found an image with that pattern on a whetstone. I had forgotten that I even had it. This image is from a Japanese auction on Yahoo Japan.

DCAE684D-18FF-4DDD-A719-57FC81062072.jpeg
 

Lord Fatboy

Forgo Mud !
If experienced honers want to test this theory, more power to them. I am a casual honer, I enjoy the process of preparing and maintaining my own razors. Sometimes I surprise myself, sometimes I disappoint myself. All part of a primitive but beautiful way of shaving that I enjoy - I suppose all of us do.

I think that all in all, no good will come of this thread because of the forceful way in which the OP posted his convictions. He was also somewhat evasive in answering queries, and touchy - if straight razor shaving was all people with that attitude, I’d probably never have persevered. I like the locals here, and the reaction in this thread says something about the ATG crowd. There is lots of expertise here but it’s also inclusive.
I've tested it, pretty thoroughly, with a wide variety of stones now.
 

thesuperiorshave

my dream's seeing a Pike Hard Ark wheel
What are your findings?
oh, methinks you might have your answer already?

[HINT: it is only safe on these forums to say negative things on the topic, yet the party cleverly identified _only_ that they've tested it "thoroughly, on a wide variety of stones", _not_ which way they felt on the matter...hmm]

dear Lord; do NOT clarify further unless to go with the proper knowledge, is my strong glitter-bomb-receiving advice!

bokerdoesntknowenglish.JPG
 

DaltonGang

Forum GOD!
oh, methinks you might have your answer already?

[HINT: it is only safe on these forums to say negative things on the topic, yet the party cleverly identified _only_ that they've tested it "thoroughly, on a wide variety of stones", _not_ which way they felt on the matter...hmm]

dear Lord; do NOT clarify further unless to go with the proper knowledge, is my strong glitter-bomb-receiving advice!

View attachment 149728
I see you broke out?

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thesuperiorshave

my dream's seeing a Pike Hard Ark wheel
here's a resourceful fellow that ably created a uniform curvature to his polygon coticule via his own unknown methodology, no custom 'negative lapping plate' required for him.

He then uses the curved coticule polygon to add concavity only to back side of his razors' bevels.

As he sees it, it seems to help his shaves for every razor he's added the slight bevel concavity. He's finishing on forum-traditional flat stones, so no changes at the apex, only changes of thickness behind the blade.

No drama necessary nor understood to him, it helps his shaves, so he just considers it another tool in the toolbox, and presumably will continue to use the tool until it stopped working *for him*. A revolutionary sensible approach for the ungeometrically threatened?

The Contriversial Convex Coticule?
 

DaltonGang

Forum GOD!
dear Lord; do NOT clarify further unless to go with the proper knowledge, is my strong glitter-bomb-receiving advice!
Please explain?? Did you make someone angry?

No drama necessary nor understood to him, it helps his shaves, so he just considers it another tool in the toolbox, and presumably will continue to use the tool until it stopped working *for him*. A revolutionary sensible approach for the ungeometrically threatened?
Why are you so hostile? Just because some people aren't buying into your "Marketing Shtick", doesn't mean you should take jabs all the time.
This is a friendly, and gentlemanly site.


.
 

Twelvefret

Forum GOD!
I watched the video. He’s not making a definitive judgement or saying he will concave all of his stones or use the Coticule on all of his razors. He seems to be having some enjoyment experimenting and testing his results.
 

Lord Fatboy

Forgo Mud !
There is a learning curve, or, at least, there was for me.
Probably no one that is deep deep deep in this hobby is going to concave all of their razors, if they have as many as I have. They probably like a variety of razors/stones, and wouldn't want to convex every stone they have, and they wouldn't need to if just "tuning" an edge.

I cannot see anyone convexing an 18 inch labelled Thuringian, as, if nothing else, they would be worried about the resale value. That's a shame, in a way, but I - sortof - see the point of convexing stones as getting more out of less. If you got a "better" edge, for you, out of one of AJs 12 quid slates than you did from a 600 quid Thuri, you would probably be pretty happy with that. (this is just a top-of-the-head example, ok, I'm not saying a piece of purple slate is getting better edges than a Thuri). Also, after a certain hardness, the shaping of the stone is a tiring process. I like tiring processes. YMMV.

I don't think it will make a tremendous difference to the really meaty cleavers, wedges and near wedges. I'm sure Jarrod probably understands that, as he seems to understand grinding.

I've noticed, so far, the "ideal razor" is really one with (relatively) softer steels, say, Sheffield hollows inter to post war (as near as we can tell that, I'm not a great historian of steel).
I have loads of those from the days when they were 4.99 on the bay. They respond really well. I can almost feel them conform to my chin. I still have a moustache though, so I'm really just cheating. :)

I don't have any "modern graphite era" Solingens, that I know of, so cannot say how they respond. The Solingens, and Swedes that I do have, and have tried, get a bump in sharpness, keenness, feelness, whatever you call it, for me (haven't tried any French razors yet). I suppose maybe that could be because I have more experience now than I did when I last honed them, but I got good edges in the before times too, lol. I cannot really get anything more out of framebacks, so maybe I'll email Jarrod for his thoughts on that.

As for progression from one stone to another, it was difficult to know what to look for, using my previous "laps, loupe, lines" style, as there was no "blueprint" for progression, like I had before. I've had to go by feel a bit more.

I used one of Jarrod's plates - bought in 2022 - with regular wet and dry, then eventually diamond paper. I recently had a go at doing one in the Solingen Guild style, by hand and eye. Results were... not great. I'll stick with the plate for now.

All in all, for me, I think it's worth the effort. YMMV, as always.
 

thesuperiorshave

my dream's seeing a Pike Hard Ark wheel
I do not think all razors benefit from a concave bevel.

I'm a devout man of science, and believe it is hard to entirely remove one's biases when evaluating something so highly subjective as the quality of a shave.

Long ago, in my many years strictly adhering to well-established forum doctrine that razor bevels were meant to be flat/flush 2/3rds of triangles, I used to use a friendly neighbor's name and address to mail a small army of all-the-same Dovo 'Best Quality' black handled entry level Solingens to be honed post-factory by various "honemeisters" of the forums. I'd mark scales with infrared pen as to honer, stirred in some of my own, and some factory edges, too. I evaluated them not knowing who's who...shave with each at least twice, jot some subjective evaluations, break out the blacklight and find out who's edge is from who. What I found was my edges were rarely extraordinary, one guy [from New England, & still in the business today] consistently had the best results, and factory fresh Dovos often rated better than many "honemeisters".

When you don't know who is who, it is a much more honest evaluation.

Now that I am doing this silly concave bevel shaping stuff, I can't really do blind evaluations, as it is obvious when I look at the razors if they've been meaningfully concaved - I know what to look for and can't "Jedi Mind Trick" it away from observation. Short of busting out the sleep mask for shaving [where as it turns out having done so a few times, making lather's the real hard part, also the mask gets in the way], confirmation biases we all suffer are unavoidable.

So for me, the subjective metric I find most effective for "Will THIS razor benefit from a concave bevel?" is the thumbnail interaction test. Think of bringing your razor edge down to press upon your thumbnail, and watching how the bevel moves from the pressure then returns to form entirely unharmed when you take the thumbnail away. In this regard, the more easily the razor bends with little pressure and great immediacy and the further it seems to move without issue, I associate having best 'electric' improvement of blade feel on the face. When you concave a bevel on a good razor, it will bend further via that test, and more quickly, with less force.

In that regard, I cannot recommend late era extra hollowed Sheffield razors enough, nothing works as well I've tried. They had some sort of unique heat treatment back then [which was reputedly also very bad for the operators' lifespans], involving lead and ash stirred into water and repeated heat/forge/quench/reheat/reforge cycles. Whatever the special sauce, they're supremely flexible steels highly resistant to chipping, and their later stuff's also extremely thinly ground, so they're for me kings of this concave razor taboo. Only problem is, finding them 6/8"+, extra hollow, lots of meat on the bone end to end, zero issues with pitting/chipping/rust...kind of a long hunt on eBay, and while still cheaper than new razors where labor's not been paid many times over for the tool's creation, not what I call a great bargain. But they're the best of what I've tried, and bargains are out there for the patient, so if you enjoy eBay hunting as a hobby, nothing finer likely exists nor ever will.

Modern Solingens, certainly they benefit, especially 6/8"+ without shoulder, like the standard Bismarck. Maybe if I had smaller wheels shapes I could unearth more benefit from common 5/8" Solingen round head carbon steel shouldered blanks, but I still say those work better for my face than flat bevels if the abrasives are identical, just not eye-poppingly so like on any 6/8". Exception is 5/8" no-shoulder Spanish head razors like Bergischer Löwe; those, already much thinner than the standard style 5/8" Solingen, their improvement's anything but subtle, and I own a lot of them.

Vintage late Victorian / early 20th. c. USA blades, excellent response.

Vintage Swedish between-the-wars, they're already so thinly ground and actuely beveled that yes, I do say to thin the bevel a little, but they're very chippy-prone razors, so better to only add a little concavity and finish on a flat, or alternatively, thin the bevel a lot and finish on a conCAVE hone or on a pasted paddle/hanging strop (also concave, which means the tip of the bevel will be convex, backed by a concave remainder to the bevel, best of both worlds).

Modern French-forged respond brilliantly. You can concave them vs much shorter diameters, at least Thiers-Issard, and they hold the concave position easily, no chipping, electric improvement in blade action. No issues shaping bevels vs 6.5'Ø all the way through to apex, which means if I had a 1mØ or even smaller wheel(s), I could've used them for the TIs' back-bevel zones, and something longer up at the apex, and get even more metal removed from the bevel w/o any chipping issues. Goal as I see it is remove as much metal in the bevel as the razor allows w/o chipping.

Portland Razor Works & Hart Steel, while I think they're not as good a product as the high watershed Gold Dollar specimens, I have honed-for-hire a few and had heard back from the customers "it never shaved this well before", multiple times.

Razors that are super thinly ground and very hard, like Wacker, don't seem to change much for me on my face. However, I have a customer that's a retired miner and he has lots of cool toys (he's even seen a Pike Hard Ark wheel!) owns the costly stuff like Tim Zowada, Max Sprecher, etc., he's a very private man that absolutely abhors these shaving forums. To a razor, he's said to me many times in emails how much better they work when he concaved their bevels. His preference for ultra hard & thin razors is to finish all the way to concavity (no flat steps at the end) with diamond films on PSA which are placed atop wooden blocks he's shaped via the taboo concave lapping plate, then he uses abrasive sprays upon balsa wood blocks, also shaped convex. He's even mentioned it in passing to Mr. Zowada at a tradeshow, that Mr. Z's own ~$1000 item worked much better for him when he changed it this way, but Mr. Z. just dismissed it and praised his flat JNats. Mr. Zowada suffers no shortage of customers to buy his razors vs his available labor, Mr. Sprecher either, so they must be doing something right regardless of their bevels' shapes. Mr. Sprecher's one of the odd ones, like the fine real doctor in Minnesota and the not-an-emm-dee "Dr. Matt", that actually own the lapping plate but won't dare seem to use the thing, too busy to shape a stone I guess. I prefer those devoted chaps who dismiss out of hand and would not also buy one, for it doesn't make any sense to me to buy a tool and never use the tool for its intended purpose.

I've only honed one frameback razor this concave bevel way, from someone that sent one in for paid honing. A very stiff razor from Japan made in their post WWII era. Didn't hear back, so don't know if he liked or not. Doesn't seem on paper a great candidate, because ignoring their typically hard steel, behind the bevel plane they reach their maximum thinness immediately - they're not like fishing rods getting thinner and thinner progressively as you move from the spine to apex. So, they may not flex differently, or at all. Like a DE blade, they make their living via superior overall thinness at a point far behind the apex.

I've deliberately tried to induce bevels to chip from concaving, and mostly been unsuccessful. Ignoring Chinese razors, for my own stable of ~50 razors, twice I've seen it, but one was a stainless Solingen 5/8", kinda shouldn't count. The other is one particular specimen of carbon 5/8" no-shoulder Spanish head modern Solingen, and a specimen which was notably looking more ground thin from the factory, and only at the last <3mm right near where the cutting edge ends at the heel. So while the ~2mØ shape is to me a great tool for improving the comfort of almost any razor, it isn't as good as having a wheel made of an extremely fine abrasive, a wheel slow enough in its rotations and cooled with water or oil to preserve the razor's heat treatment, and a wheel small enough in its diameter that at all points of bevel refinement you would use it freehand, spine off the stone. If I had that, I could on the fly alter the approach of the bevel to the wheel by feel, and the amount of bevel depth interacting with the wheel as well as the pressure imparted, to have an extremely complex compound form to a concave bevel. But those options were lost to time. I would love a shorter diameter at my disposal to start up 4/8" and 5/8" razors better, but shapes cost $, and shorter diameters cost more off the corners of a stone (on a 2x4" a 1x8mØ shape costs -2.7mm, and -6mm off a 2x6"!)

This is not a NEED thing. Not everyone will need a concave bevel. Not everyone will notice a difference. Not everyone will even like it better. But they're intended to be made that way, however slightly, by the current producers, and it is mentioned in old grinding textbooks, and the very old grinder told me 14yrs ago that nothing compared to the on-the-fly compound concave bevel off a Pike Ark wheel. Take that for what it is worth to you, but if you've struggled with using a straight razor in any way after devoutly adhering to the constant refrain here and elsewhere that only a flat flush bevel is correct, you may wish to try a different path espoused by the producers of the tools. It is kind of like comparing summer tires to all season tires here in FL, or MC cartridges to MM cartridges on a turntable, or for that matter comparing turntable music vs digital music from the same amplifier/speakers/room. My wife firmly states she hears no differences. My 15yr old daughter, gifted and interested in music, says she hears a clear difference. I (thought I) heard a difference adopting to a turntable lifestyle, and (thought I) heard a difference when I switched to MC cartridges vs MM, and (thought I) heard a difference incorporating a step-up transformer in the signal path. The biggest endorsement for myself and the concave bevels is that prior to switching, I'd given up on coticules shaving me well; just not sharp enough at the apex they could make...but now, when that same sharpness-limited apex is backed by significantly thinner steel, I love coticules again.
 

Steve56

Forum GOD!
Oliver North (cotedupy) has a coticule wheel that he bought at a boot sale in England. He’s a knife grinder that works at Blenheim Forge for you English blade fans (very nice knives!) but I don’t know that he’s used it yet, except maybe the flat side for razors.

Marty has a plate and a Norton 4k/8k set that he bought second hand and never used, so having an unused plate is not uncommon it would seem. He offered to send them to me, and I might take him up on it but there’s too much going on right now and I’ve become a KISS kind of person over the years. You’d think that you’d have time after years of retirement, but it doesn’t work that way. I’m learning 2 languages, and it’s spring here and time to hike in the Smokies before the bugs turn out in force. I also lean to quite hollow razors, Swedish, Spanish, French and yes, even a couple of very thin JRazors that maybe would not show the effect from a convex hone as well.
 
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DaltonGang

Forum GOD!
Oliver North (cotedupy) has a coticule wheel that he bought at a boot sale in England. He’s a knife grinder that works at Blenheim Forge for you English blade fans (very nice knives!) but I don’t know that he’s used it yet, except maybe the flat side for razors.

Marty has a plate and a Norton 4k/8k set that he bought second hand and never used, so having an unused plate is not uncommon it would seem. He offered to send them to me, and I might take him up on it but there’s too much going on right now and I’ve become a KISS kind of person over the years. You’d think that you’d have time after years of retirement, but it doesn’t work that way. I’m learning 2 languages, and it’s spring here and time to hike in the Smokies before the bugs turn out in force. I also lean to quite hollow razors, Swedish, Spanish, French and yes, even a couple of very thin JRazors that maybe would not show the effect from a convex hone as well.
See if Marty will sell the Nortons. They could be Flattened, and brought back to being useful again.

As for hiking, I've always wanted to hike the Appalachian Trail.
 
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