Sharpness vs Keenness as Described by an Old Solingen Grinder

[Twelvefret]

Fortunately, I use 90 year plus eBay used and abused razors and have honed them all myself to where I can get to near or same shavette. I don’t know beans about metallurgy. And, I suspect the professional barber didnt or cared. They used those carborundum things.

While I understand the want for new razors, I suspect those made in the day where the SR was the norm to be superior or at least pretty decent.

 

[Gairdner]

Aye, it’s a braw bird the puddock…

 

[Twelvefret]

Well of course they were/are better-the factors of production were enormously larger, not unlike if billions more people start playing badminton there's likely a better chance at a period of great supreme talent.

But that's a bit like saying when I was in my 20s and early 30s I should not have behaved as I did in Manhattan, knowing full well that those colleagues of mine who happened to have been in *their* 20s/early 30s during the prior period between the commonality of 'the pill' and the emergence of HIV/AIDS had it much, much better. Why should I have done what I did knowing it was inferior? Sooner or later, those old cars in Cuba won't run forever.

Razors don't get longer, only shorter, and as they shorten, they flex less. I don't have a time machine to go back to Solingen 1900 and have a 6/8" extra hollow honed for me by a 14 year old on a 20cm Thuri wheel he works 12 hours a day, and I don't want the modern production to cease, and that will still be true if/when I'm out of the business, if they're still made I'm still buying to vote with my money the outcome I hope to see. Any razor, to me its best days are its earliest best honed with the most meat on the bone.

No, it’s really not , to use your analogy.
It’s more like self validation on your part and trying to save face.

Simple fact is, using a SR in 2021 is simple and easy to achieve.

 

[UKRob]

Well of course they were/are better-the factors of production were enormously larger, not unlike if billions more people start playing badminton there's likely a better chance at a period of great supreme talent.

But that's a bit like saying when I was in my 20s and early 30s I should not have behaved as I did in Manhattan, knowing full well that those colleagues of mine who happened to have been in *their* 20s/early 30s during the prior period between the commonality of 'the pill' and the emergence of HIV/AIDS had it much, much better. Why should I have done what I did knowing it was inferior? Sooner or later, those old cars in Cuba won't run forever.

Razors don't get longer, only shorter, and as they shorten, they flex less. I don't have a time machine to go back to Solingen 1900 and have a 6/8" extra hollow honed for me by a 14 year old on a 20cm Thuri wheel he works 12 hours a day, and I don't want the modern production to cease, and that will still be true if/when I'm out of the business, if they're still made I'm still buying to vote with my money the outcome I hope to see. Any razor, to me its best days are its earliest best honed with the most meat on the bone.

You are over-thinking this - making a straight razor does not, and never has, required a supreme talent. Look at the way razors have been made for years and years - including the era of mass production - and you see that the hollow grinding is carried out using a double wheel arrangement where the wheels are gradually bought together. This is not much more than a semi-skilled job, followed by part honing on a rotating wheel, final honing and then assembly into mass produced scales using a piece of rod and washers. Of course, I don’t need to teach you how to suck eggs, because you’ve visited all the main manufacturers.

Modern custom makers are at least equal in their output - given that they tend to grind by hand from stock they have cut, tempered and quenched themselves and then finish in hand made scales.

 

[Twelvefret]

We will agree to disagree, 12fret - my position is that sooner or later (because they're currently produced), the formerly-superior wider/thinner past stock *as it is available today at a given cost* will be inferior to that which is *currently produced today at a given equal cost*, and also that if everyone simultaneously agreed with you "only the old peak's worth my time, I shall drink no other whisky", the industry would collapse and eventually the tools available to everyone down the road would be inferior.

Do you really think I care what people think about my 'face', and would behave as I do if that was >1/∞% of my concerns? I will clarify against strawman and ad hominems all day, but I don't give one shyte what others think of me in regards to what I do, for that I use only my mirror, and that's been true since 1988. Validate whatever you want. I'll be jumping for joy when I'm writing someone else's Amazon Seller Central listings for $ and with a healthcare plan soon enough, I can tell you that. The joy of never having to listen to the negative folks in this troposphere's worth all the money in the world to me, but for now I have to fight them while I am not so rewarded an exterior financial position. Enjoy those old razors!

Maybe, maybe not.

No legitimate reason to start a fight here with seasoned honers.

 

[DaltonGang]

@thesuperiorshave , Jarrod, I recall a certain thing you said, a couple of years ago, on another shave site. Basically you said you would do or say anything, to put food on the table for your family. Honest yes, honorable no. You lost all credibility with me, after that. Not long after that, you were banned from that site. Sometimes saying less, is better than saying more.

 

[DaltonGang]

Dalton, free advice; don't take everything you read literally.

I won't lie. I will endorse cigarettes in adverts aimed to legal potential customers. BIG difference. One trades integrity for dollars, the other not. You can have my honesty shoved where you dislike and you can raise your little army of haters up to send more glitter bombs, but it can't be denied.

You're just yet another never-tried using the other site's actions to justify the pathetic mindset of those with poor curiosity. And do you know how noble that other LLC place was/is? So noble their mod messaged me to say 'since you're a vendor, you can pay $600 and say what u wish, or not & be banned', and I chose the latter...it doesn't turn the $ back, I tried it. 'Gamma' OTOH is for reasons unknown allowed to keep serious sidehustle tomonagura and yet comment on anything anywhere as if no $ interests, never a 'contributor' or 'banned' affixed to him...must be an oversight, I'm sure.

So you stay safe with those isosceles triangles and don't dare read those screenshots on that honing page! When I push the special button, I really do take the 'other Matrix pill', so knock yourself out with replies... you might wish to give the ignore button a try, too (it is a safe thing to try unlike altering a hone or bevel's topography). I wouldn't care about any e-squabble once my income needs are gone and I think doing so's pathetically immature and shockingly common. All my fights are over issues related to sale of straight razors and nothing else.

#readingcomprehension

It's hard for me to guess which one, of many, you are referring to.


.

 

[JPO]

Here is a translation of what a German razor forum member was left with after he had read the old text book that's been refered to. It seems like it is up for interpretation. Take what you like from this. Personal drama should be left out of the discussion.
He also said politely that he prefer his edges with a little more obtuse edge, because they are smoother and last longer, and his beard did not need anything else. I think for most people that will be the case.

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Ok, to translate the text you need someone who can write an english that was spoken appr. 100 years ago. My english is very lousy but I will try to explain what the part with the convex sharpening stone says: A man, who the author think he is an expert, says that the best way to sharpen a razor is to use 3 stones where the coarsest has an strong convex surface, the middle stone an light convex surface and the finest stone an straight surface. There is no explanaition why the man think this. Everything the author writes about an possible reason, makes no sense at all. On the other hand the author think that this kind of stone-setup will make it more difficult for a normal user to get good results, because normal grinding is difficulty enough and such a setup will make it more complex with no need.
Maybe another user can give you a better
translation...

 

[RussellR5555]

Here is a translation of what a German razor forum member was left with after he had read the old text book that's been refered to. It seems like it is up for interpretation. Take what you like from this. Personal drama should be left out of the discussion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, to translate the text you need someone who can write an english that was spoken appr. 100 years ago. My english is very lousy but I will try to explain what the part with the convex sharpening stone says: A man, who the author think he is an expert, says that the best way to sharpen a razor is to use 3 stones where the coarsest has an strong convex surface, the middle stone an light convex surface and the finest stone an straight surface. There is no explanaition why the man think this. Everything the author writes about an possible reason, makes no sense at all. On the other hand the author think that this kind of stone-setup will make it more difficult for a normal user to get good results, because normal grinding is difficulty enough and such a setup will make it more complex with no need.
Maybe another user can give you a better
translation...

Thank you Sheldon I find sometimes the discussions I have read on this very frustrating , as usually the main advocate opens with everyone is doing it wrong and then gets mad when people disagree, your information is interesting and presented as is.

I have a few questions I guess , If this method is indeed the best why isn't everyone loving the edge every razor that ever came out of solingen , in my all be it limited experience(I am a hobby honer) , the factory edges are usually less than optimal.

I would still contend that whats good for the factory scenario is a fast and consistent method , not necessarily the optimal method and I suspect that is more the reason you find these tools in the razor factory.

I have a bias on this next point as I am a big fan of Japanese Razors, tools etc , but for me some of the best edges I ever experienced came from Japan , from the videos and descriptions i have seen , they generally seem to work on flat stones.

On the edge is your personal experience that using this method , you see a noticeable improvement in the quality/comfort of your edges ? and I know it is of course subjective but how would you say they differ ?

 

[JPO]

Thank you Sheldon I find sometimes the discussions I have read on this very frustrating , as usually the main advocate opens with everyone is doing it wrong and then gets mad when people disagree, your information is interesting and presented as is.

I have a few questions I guess , If this method is indeed the best why isn't everyone loving the edge every razor that ever came out of solingen , in my all be it limited experience(I am a hobby honer) , the factory edges are usually less than optimal.

I would still contend that whats good for the factory scenario is a fast and consistent method , not necessarily the optimal method and I suspect that is more the reason you find these tools in the razor factory.

I have a bias on this next point as I am a big fan of Japanese Razors, tools etc , but for me some of the best edges I ever experienced came from Japan , from the videos and descriptions i have seen , they generally seem to work on flat stones.

On the edge is your personal experience that using this method , you see a noticeable improvement in the quality/comfort of your edges ? and I know it is of course but how would you say they differ ?

To say that the edges are better is probably not correct. The process is at least different. It does help with difficult geometries. An acceptably working edge for me can come from a coticule finish, after that it is all just a bonus.
When i started honing i was looking for those ultra sharp edges, now i usually prefer a less sharp edge from a natural stone. So what is better. At some point it does get tedious to shave with a laser sharp edge, but it can be fun to experiment with. To say it is better is simply just wrong in my opinion for most people, but it can be a way to push the edge a little further.
Most of the time my coticule edges are just not sharp enough for my taste, but i have found that messing a little with the bevel angle and getting in some concavity on the bevel, improves it enough for my taste.
This razor was just honed with flat shapton stones, see picture. This edge is hard to beat for sharpnes. But i find it a little less smooth. Abrasives have come along way. They can also make it really simple, especially with harder steel.

 

[Steve56]

I’ve stayed away from the bevel thinning discussion, but if you have a warped, oddly ground, or otherwise uncooperative razor, remember that every rectangular stone comes with 4 narrow stones, one on each corner. A combination of circles/ellipses and back-and-forth stokes on a corner will hone into anything that Solingen puts in my way so far.

I actually have acquired harrow hones over the years and they are useful. The two on the left were sold as tomo nagura even though the suita is a foot long! These two were $35 each and the asagi can finish. The two on the right are from Alex Gilmore, and therefore not cheap, lol. The hard Nakayama kiita, second from right, I bought with the idea of cutting into tomo but have not been able to bring myself to do it. It’s a great final finisher.

 

[Twelvefret]

@Steve56 et al, I’ve noticed old barber razors to be overly honed on the blade tip. If you have also noticed, what was the purpose, or was it negligence or that they were too busy to be concerned?

 

[Steve56]

Hi Chuck,

I’m near 100% sure that it was the way that they were taught to use a barber hone in barber school. I’ve confirmed as much with my own barber, a master barber 70 years old who also teaches.

They were taught to use a ‘figure 8’ motion on the hone and never lift the razor off the stone. So when they pivoted the nose on the stone, they had a small amount of steel in contact with an aggressive media and didn’t reduce pressure. So the toe wore much more than the rest of the blade.

I have a couple of images of the barber school templates or honing guides showing the figure 8 and darned if I can find them but I’ll keep looking. They turn up on eBay a couple of times a year but you can’t very well search for them because no one knows what they are.

Try practicing a figure 8 honing stroke without lifting the toe (on a user razor) and I think you’ll discover the problem.

 

[SammieM]

Hello All,

This is an interesting topic. I will start by saying that I only hone for myself.
The concept of convex stone along the length of the stone makes sense. It will thin the bevel angle and make it keener. This can possibly lead to a sharper edge also. This is debatable however.
What doesn’t make sense to me is the round spinning stones used by razor makers convexed in both directions. That is simply not possible. If you can cut the stone and straighten it (or just look at the cross section) I am sure there will be no convexing from end to end. The convexing is only from side to side. That in itself doesn’t impart a concave shape to the bevel. It is only useful with imperfect grinds as mentioned before. If the razor makers honed all their razors on straight stones as opposed to a round spinning one, then that is a different story.
It sounds like the book doesn’t specify that the convex stones are spinning round ones or straight rectangular ones( sorry, didn’t look at the book as I don’t speak German). Any thought on this?

 

[Steve56]

Ha, found it.