Phoenix and Beau (The Ammonia Scent Issue)

[phoenixandbeau]

Thanks all, I'm at work at the moment and will get back to you in full this evening.

Kind regards,

Kerry.

 

[Len]

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response, Kerry! I do have a couple of comments/questions for you though.

ACTION AND SOLUTION!

• As of December 2016 we will be curing our soap for 10 weeks. My research suggests that this surpasses the vast majority, if not all other artisans, but for Savonnerie Martin de Candre.

When you first identified this issue way back when, you yourself commented that the curing time might have been the culprit, and that you would age the soaps for much longer time periods going forward to solve this issue. (I believe I can find these quotes on other forums in case anyone doubts this.) These comments date from a time before Star Noir was even produced. The question becomes then, did you not cure Star Noir for as long as was needed, knowing that the issue already existed, or, is there another problem occurring besides curing time that you have not correctly pinpointed? It could be an issue with one of your ingredients or in the cooking process itself... Just a layman's guess, but I've never heard this issue being encountered with any other soap maker, either on the forums or in my personal experience, and this from soaps received during transport of the hottest summer months.

Please feel free to ask any questions or offer any suggestions you might have and in the interim please continue to enjoy our soap in the comfort that if you're anything less than 100% satisfied with it I'll either provide you with a full refund or a replacement soap so long as the following conditions have been met:
What is your returns policy?

Our policy lasts 30 days. If 30 days have gone by since your purchase, unfortunately we can’t offer you a refund or exchange. To be eligible for a return, your item must be unused. It must also be in the original packaging. You are also responsible for the cost of postage back to us. We do not accept returns for Phoenix and Beau soaps you have received as part of a trade.

I'm sorry Kerry, but this returns policy for a defective product is, without mincing words, unacceptable.

I would understand if myself or others simply did not care for the product for preference or personal taste issues, but when an item is damaged or defective, it should be the responsibility of the producer or vendor to replace said defective item without further cost to the buyer. It is like being doubly aggrieved. First, the buyer gets a bad product that they have to sit on and deal with, and then second they have to pay further with their time and money to ship back the bad product while having to wait further on an exchange or refund.

It is more so for me, as the cost of shipping from the USA to the UK is more than twice the cost of the soap itself! So, I'm expected to pay for what amounts to 2-3 tubs of soap, only to get a refund or exchange on something that should have been right the first time, and for what was already paid for? (Disclosure: My full order from Connaught's was over £60 precisely because Paul offers free shipping to the USA for over that amount of product ordered.)

Even if I lived in the UK and local shipping was cheaper, your customers should not have to pay to return an item that was defective due to your own fault.

When I've had broken or defective products from Amazon, or other larger retailers, they apologized, and emailed me a prepaid shipping label (which they paid for) to ship back the defective product, and sent me a new, problem free product, or refund, with zero cost to me.

If your returns policy for a defective product is going to cost me money (in my case, more than double the item is worth), it is adding insult to injury, and will be the last P&B product I ever buy. On top of gambling on a possible bad soap, I'm not going to pay more to get it fixed when it should have been right from the beginning. That is an unacceptable business practice from my standpoint. I'd rather just cut my losses, rather than risk in the future or pay more to get it fixed.

Correct me if I misread this returns policy, but if you quoted it here in the context of a defective product, I think I may be done with your company, and would advise others to do the same or beware of the risk they take.

 

[Reevers]

I appreciate the effort and transparency, Kerry. I'll be keeping an eye on P&B's releases for next year. Thanks

 

[SeanC]

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response, Kerry! I do have a couple of comments/questions for you though.



When you first identified this issue way back when, you yourself commented that the curing time might have been the culprit, and that you would age the soaps for much longer time periods going forward to solve this issue. (I believe I can find these quotes on other forums in case anyone doubts this.) These comments date from a time before Star Noir was even produced. The question becomes then, did you not cure Star Noir for as long as was needed, knowing that the issue already existed, or, is there another problem occurring besides curing time that you have not correctly pinpointed? It could be an issue with one of your ingredients or in the cooking process itself... Just a layman's guess, but I've never heard this issue being encountered with any other soap maker, either on the forums or in my personal experience, and this from soaps received during transport of the hottest summer months.



I'm sorry Kerry, but this returns policy for a defective product is, without mincing words, unacceptable.

I would understand if myself or others simply did not care for the product for preference or personal taste issues, but when an item is damaged or defective, it should be the responsibility of the producer or vendor to replace said defective item without further cost to the buyer. It is like being doubly aggrieved. First, the buyer gets a bad product that they have to sit on and deal with, and then second they have to pay further with their time and money to ship back the bad product while having to wait further on an exchange or refund.

It is more so for me, as the cost of shipping from the USA to the UK is more than twice the cost of the soap itself! So, I'm expected to pay for what amounts to 2-3 tubs of soap, only to get a refund or exchange on something that should have been right the first time, and for what was already paid for? (Disclosure: My full order from Connaught's was over £60 precisely because Paul offers free shipping to the USA for over that amount of product ordered.)

Even if I lived in the UK and local shipping was cheaper, your customers should not have to pay to return an item that was defective due to your own fault.

When I've had broken or defective products from Amazon, or other larger retailers, they apologized, and emailed me a prepaid shipping label (which they paid for) to ship back the defective product, and sent me a new, problem free product, or refund, with zero cost to me.

If your returns policy for a defective product is going to cost me money (in my case, more than double the item is worth), it is adding insult to injury, and will be the last P&B product I ever buy. On top of gambling on a possible bad soap, I'm not going to pay more to get it fixed when it should have been right from the beginning. That is an unacceptable business practice from my standpoint. I'd rather just cut my losses, rather than risk in the future or pay more to get it fixed.

Correct me if I misread this returns policy, but if you quoted it here in the context of a defective product, I think I may be done with your company, and would advise others to do the same or beware of the risk they take.

Under UK law when an item is faulty, as opposed to the buyer just not liking it, responsibility for return postage does indeed lie with the seller: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations

Adding the phrase 'In addition to your statutory rights' to the P&B text above would probably help clarify matters

Rather than waste money on postage for something which will just be trashed anyway, I remember one retailer asking me to send photographic evidence of the item being disposed of. They then refunded promptly. This to me was a good pragmatic solution.

 

[Wayne]

I'm glad you have hopefully identified the issue. I had the same with a tub of Sanskrit. Great performance as always but the ammonia smell was so evident every time I took off the lid I couldn't bring myself to use it and eventually sold it on. The card box sounds nice. I look forward to seeing it.

 

[phoenixandbeau]

Evening everyone,

Thank you for your comments and questions so far, I've taken a moment to have a look at each one below.

Hello Kerry,

I recently purchased three tubs of your Unscented soaps (no ammonia smell in any of them and nothing on the nose except for a faint butterscotch type note when I try really hard to find something!) I'm currently using my first tub, every four days, as part of my four soap rotation - I've used it two times so far and the lather has been excellent, giving me an enjoyable shave.

Hopefully I didn't miss the answer when I was reading over this thread but I am wondering if I should store this unscented soap in the same way as you described above - with the lid off away from direct sunlight or is this advice just for the scented ones? At the moment, with all my soaps, I keep the lid off for a day only, until the next shave, as a reminder of what to use next then I tighten it back on again.

Thank you for the help - much appreciated

Hi @Hexagrapher and thank you for your purchases and your question. I have had zero reports of my unscented soap as exhibiting any ammonia scent and the guidance was more for @Mr Bigmem. We suggest the following tips as the best way to look after any of our current soaps:

1. We recommend that you rinse your soap each time after use with cold water.

2. We also recommend that you invert the jar (or whichever vessel you've decanted it in to) and allow it to breath and dry for a good few hours before you re-lid and turn the right way up again.

3. Like any handmade soap ours doesn't like to be exposed to too high an ambient temperature. If it's hot where you live please try and keep your soap somewhere cool and dry and don't expose it to direct sunlight.

Happy shaving!

Hi kerry it is Star Noir. and it was purchased from your site on the pre orders. and its lil waxy almost grainy bits. PM with details of purchase in coming

All received @Mr Bigmem and reply sent. Please let me know your preference and thanks for your help .

@phoenixandbeau If you remember Kerry I had this problem with one of your 1st soaps earlier this year. I found that by putting the soap in my airing cupboard for 2 or 3 weeks it solved the problem. I think the new procedures should help sort it out.............

Thanks @missingskin and I certainly do remember you getting in touch. Glad it sorted itself out and I hope you're still enjoying the soap? I think the new procedures and soap size will help things out nicely .

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response, Kerry! I do have a couple of comments/questions for you though.

When you first identified this issue way back when, you yourself commented that the curing time might have been the culprit, and that you would age the soaps for much longer time periods going forward to solve this issue. (I believe I can find these quotes on other forums in case anyone doubts this.) These comments date from a time before Star Noir was even produced. The question becomes then, did you not cure Star Noir for as long as was needed, knowing that the issue already existed, or, is there another problem occurring besides curing time that you have not correctly pinpointed? It could be an issue with one of your ingredients or in the cooking process itself... Just a layman's guess, but I've never heard this issue being encountered with any other soap maker, either on the forums or in my personal experience, and this from soaps received during transport of the hottest summer months.

I'm sorry Kerry, but this returns policy for a defective product is, without mincing words, unacceptable.

I would understand if myself or others simply did not care for the product for preference or personal taste issues, but when an item is damaged or defective, it should be the responsibility of the producer or vendor to replace said defective item without further cost to the buyer. It is like being doubly aggrieved. First, the buyer gets a bad product that they have to sit on and deal with, and then second they have to pay further with their time and money to ship back the bad product while having to wait further on an exchange or refund.

It is more so for me, as the cost of shipping from the USA to the UK is more than twice the cost of the soap itself! So, I'm expected to pay for what amounts to 2-3 tubs of soap, only to get a refund or exchange on something that should have been right the first time, and for what was already paid for? (Disclosure: My full order from Connaught's was over £60 precisely because Paul offers free shipping to the USA for over that amount of product ordered.)

Even if I lived in the UK and local shipping was cheaper, your customers should not have to pay to return an item that was defective due to your own fault.

When I've had broken or defective products from Amazon, or other larger retailers, they apologized, and emailed me a prepaid shipping label (which they paid for) to ship back the defective product, and sent me a new, problem free product, or refund, with zero cost to me.

If your returns policy for a defective product is going to cost me money (in my case, more than double the item is worth), it is adding insult to injury, and will be the last P&B product I ever buy. On top of gambling on a possible bad soap, I'm not going to pay more to get it fixed when it should have been right from the beginning. That is an unacceptable business practice from my standpoint. I'd rather just cut my losses, rather than risk in the future or pay more to get it fixed.

Correct me if I misread this returns policy, but if you quoted it here in the context of a defective product, I think I may be done with your company, and would advise others to do the same or beware of the risk they take.

Hi @Len, thanks for your questions and recommendations; please allow me to address each point for you.

1) Regarding Star Noir: All of our soaps have been cured for a minimum of 4 weeks since 1st August, this also includes Star Noir.

2) Regarding another problem not being correctly pinpointed: I am very happy with the provenance of our ingredients (all from reputable and well known UK suppliers) and the consistent methodology we use to make each batch of soap. Consequently I'm satisfied that by adopting a 10-week cure and smaller product size my soap will have had sufficient time to consistently cure across the entire scent range.

3) Regarding the cost of returns: I understand the points your raise and will be altering / re-wording our returns policy to reflect both that and the UK's Consumer Rights Act 2015. I'll post this in full on our website once completed (not now as it's 1am and it has been a lloonngg day) but the relevant part is that (in the event of "faulty" goods, in this case, an ammonia scent) the onus is upon me to cover the (reasonable) cost of return postage.

N.B. You wouldn't know it from my quoted returns policy but I already do this, although with one distinction in that I ask return postage is paid up front and prior to the assessment of the product. Once I am satisfied that the soap is faulty I issue a return postage refund along with the customers preferred option, e.g. full refund for soap purchase and original postage OR a new soap. In the brief interim, please email me - kerry@phoenixandbeau.uk - with your proof of purchase from Connaughts and we'll get the ball rolling for you. Hope that helps?

I appreciate the effort and transparency, Kerry. I'll be keeping an eye on P&B's releases for next year. Thanks

Thanks @Reevers, that's much appreciated. I'm a man of integrity and like to describe how I work through the ups and downs of running our little business.

Under UK law when an item is faulty, as opposed to the buyer just not liking it, responsibility for return postage does indeed lie with the seller: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations

Adding the phrase 'In addition to your statutory rights' to the P&B text above would probably help clarify matters

Rather than waste money on postage for something which will just be trashed anyway, I remember one retailer asking me to send photographic evidence of the item being disposed of. They then refunded promptly. This to me was a good pragmatic solution.

Thanks for this @SeanC, again, much appreciated and an informative read. I have used the photo method for a Denali that had split but it's a little trickier when I want to smell and dissect a soap. Point taken, though.

I'm glad you have hopefully identified the issue. I had the same with a tub of Sanskrit. Great performance as always but the ammonia smell was so evident every time I took off the lid I couldn't bring myself to use it and eventually sold it on. The card box sounds nice. I look forward to seeing it.

Cheers @Wayne, I'm looking forward to releasing the 60g soaps, or as we originally call them here, the "60's" . I'm obviously hell bent on ironing out this minor but infuriating kink and moving forwards with our smaller, longer cured products. The same beautiful label designs (albeit smaller), overhauled artwork for citra royale, sanskrit and solaris, more affordable and less demanding on space in your den = win .

Right, that's me for now. Please share any other questions or comments you might have.

Kind regards,

Kerry.

 

[phoenixandbeau]

Evening everyone,

As promised, I have updated our FAQ page (and more importantly) also our returns policy, here - http://www.phoenixandbeau.uk/pages/questions

Please let me know what you think and also if there are any other questions you would like answered.

Oh, a couple of other things; our Black Friday and Cyber Monday weekend sale ends tomorrow and you can still get 25% off via code: BF25. Also, I just had to share this with you as it really made my day .

The below is a genuine email from a customer from County Durham who contacted me only yesterday. Thanks Paul, you really made me laugh .

Hi guys,

Firstly thanks for shipping my soap so quickly. It was an awesome package to come home to after work last night. About a year ago I stumbled across DE shaving online and decided to give it a shot. Almost immediately something that was once a chore (and something I hated) became a true joy. I was a bit wet behind the ears though, and at first was using normal shave foam.

Needless to say that didn't go too well so, the next week, whilst being dragged around the metro centre by my other half and being subjected to half a dozen stores housing women stood behind desks wearing too much makeup, telling my wife she needs to buy more makeup, I bought some body shop macca root cream. Compared to what I was used to, it seemed super, super expensive, because it only lasted a week. Being a man, and being of the mindset that reading instructions is cheating, I of course didn't know that one is supposed to use a brush.

Turning DE shaving into somewhat of a hobby, I fed my children only bread and water for a while, and saved up enough money to buy tonnes of different creams and soaps, from Tesco bought, el-cheapo Palmolive, to Aqua Di Parmesan, which thankfully didn't actually smell like Parmesan, but did cost more than champagne. I could never quite find something that ticked all the boxes though.

My quest to find a soap that felt like a fluffy cloud on my skin, gave enough lubrication to prevent razor burn, and gave me an ability to watch football at the same time as convincingly answering questions from the wife such as, "does this cushion look nice with this throw?" unfortunately fell flat. I'm only joking about the last criteria of course. I don't like football.

Anyway, I did some research on the googleywoogle and whaddya know, loads of people were saying there was a great product from here in the U.K. I read dozens of forum posts saying how amazing this Phoenix and Beau product was. So I bought some. And would you believe it, they were right! Sanskrit is without doubt the very best shaving soap I have ever used.

It feels and smells beautiful, and teamed with my Muhle R41 and a feather blade; a combination reserved only for the bravest of brave, it left me with no irritation, no burn, and no tightness. And, the next day my skin felt softer than a tootsie roll fruit cup. Amazing!

So thank you too, for such an awesome product. It's my new favourite thing, now that I can't afford cocaine. I'm only joking. I have never been able to afford cocaine.

Yours humbly,

Paul.

Right, best dash, so much to do and too little time.

Kerry.

 

[Len]

Just as a note, I wanted to say that @phoenixandbeau has done right by me.

I have mentioned privately to him some lingering concerns I have with his updated returns policy, and general thoughts about his soap. I may post some of these thoughts here later, but wanted Kerry to have the chance to address these issues privately with me before I opened public comment.

Again Kerry, thank you for making my situation right!

 

[Mr Bigmem]

Just as a note, I wanted to say that @phoenixandbeau has done right by me.

I have mentioned privately to him some lingering concerns I have with his updated returns policy, and general thoughts about his soap. I may post some of these thoughts here later, but wanted Kerry to have the chance to address these issues privately with me before I opened public comment.

Again Kerry, thank you for making my situation right!

I have to echo @Len and his comments that Kerry @phoenixandbeau also did very right by me also. Kerry reached out and dealt with my situation as a pure class artisan, all round good gent and with top notch customer service. i've got to take my hat off to him. I do trust all our concerns will be address in all his future soaps and iterations. and I know first hand he deal with any issues remarkably.

 

[Nishy]

P&B, Wickhams, OSP all are human, yet always offer exemplorary service. Thanks for the follow up Kerry.

 

[Hexagrapher]

Good stuff.

I really rate great service and communication. Kerry has been outstanding here and I am very impressed with this attitude and approach to others.

Without mud slinging, and naming names, I have been on the receiving end of bad service and communication and it was a horrible experience. Just horrible.

So, nice one all round for everyone involved here

 

[Wayne]

That is the difference between big companies and artisan companies. The artisan can offer a kind of level of service that bigger companies often forget.

 

[matteob]

Can't say I have had any bad smells from my Albion but kudos to Kerry for dealing with this. Not referring to Kerry, Sharon, Fox or OSP here but any old Tom Dick or Harry can set up a website snd sell an "artisan" soap when they are far from expert. Does one have to submit the product to external testing before one can market it? I just put this out there because I am a lawyer and wondering about covering one's back regarding suits (god forbid) if something causes a nasty reaction with someone.

Just want to say again I have no issues with the Phoenix and Beau formulation and will certainly be buying more. Just curious about the switch to cardboard packaging though because actually I like the pot being someone who applies the soap to the brush from the pot then builds in a scuttle.

 

[lloydrm]

I wanted to get a few unscented as I love it, but its been sold out since Friday :S

 

[Mr Bigmem]

I wanted to get a few unscented as I love it, but its been sold out since Friday :S

Message Kerry, a lil birdie told me they had some curing. He'll be able to give you an indication when they'll be ready to go on sale