A new razor comming

[Randy]

That's exactly the reason. It requires less effort to keep the razor cutting, especially while going for ATG on the neck.
It's not that I have a problem shaving with neutral/negative exposure razors, but it's just easier for me to do it when the range of the shaving angle is wide. It happened to me to get grumpy when I shaved the lather off but not the hair, because my angle was not right.

But you convinced me, I need to print one like Hanson and try it out. Perhaps I am missing something obvieus.

Wow daaaaamn exactly this!!!!

I had the same problem, because I'm not an expert and I sometimes lose the angle.
I like a razor with wide range of cutting ability. Even with the risk to scrape my skin off. Also if the razor doesn't bite or at least make a "shaving sound", I'm selling it or leave it aside.

Why? Because I'm obsessed with powerful full fat artisan soaps that produce a lather so rich and protective, that many razors can't cut through it.
But that's me.

So, based on your posts, are you creating a razor for me then??

 

[Nord Razors]

So, based on your posts, are you creating a razor for me then??

I beleive one of baseplates might really meet your expectations, indeed.
I think most shavers prefer wide range of the shaving angle, but as always there must be a balance between the range and cap/guard span. Shaving with too short spans is rather extreme exercise.

 

[slapo]

That's exactly the reason. It requires less effort to keep the razor cutting, especially while going for ATG on the neck.
It's not that I have a problem shaving with neutral/negative exposure razors, but it's just easier for me to do it when the range of the shaving angle is wide. It happened to me to get grumpy when I shaved the lather off but not the hair, because my angle was not right.

But you convinced me, I need to print one like Hanson and try it out. Perhaps I am missing something obvieus.

I've been pondering this some more, and I have to apologise in advance for what might be a long-winded and opinionated post.

I think there are at least these few things in play:
- grip,
- what one "feels" for,
- amount of abrasion skin can take before numbing,
- lather density,
- natural angle proclivity.


To elaborate, in maintaining the angle, one can choose to engage just the fingers, hand, wrist, the whole hand and any of their combinations, possibly also engaging the rest of the body in some way. Choice of grip affects how the razor can be moved.

What one feels for matters when the razor doesn't have much blade feel, and I know some people rely on blade feel significantly to be able to tell what's going on.

Some soaps, as well as abrasion, can numb the skin to a varying extent, and this can prevent people from using the feel of the material as an indicator, rather than (or in combination with) blade feel.

Lather density affects how well one can feel the razor material itself, not just the blade itself. My current preference is to hydrate the soap as much as I can while it still maintains slickness and is whipped to the consistency of... perhaps between cotton candy and whipped cream. I found that when it's like that:
- I can feel the razor itself,
- hair is evicted with lather more effectively, also reducing clogging in general,
- it requires less soap, which means that harsher soaps aren't as drying and less agitation is required for face lathering.

What I'm getting it at is that with a tweak to lather and technique, razors with a built-in angle guide can remarkably easy to handle even when they have minimal blade exposure, at least in my experience.

 

[Randy]

I've been pondering this some more, and I have to apologise in advance for what might be a long-winded and opinionated post.

I think there are at least these few things in play:
- grip,
- what one "feels" for,
- amount of abrasion skin can take before numbing,
- lather density,
- natural angle proclivity.


To elaborate, in maintaining the angle, one can choose to engage just the fingers, hand, wrist, the whole hand and any of their combinations, possibly also engaging the rest of the body in some way. Choice of grip affects how the razor can be moved.

What one feels for matters when the razor doesn't have much blade feel, and I know some people rely on blade feel significantly to be able to tell what's going on.

Some soaps, as well as abrasion, can numb the skin to a varying extent, and this can prevent people from using the feel of the material as an indicator, rather than (or in combination with) blade feel.

Lather density affects how well one can feel the razor material itself, not just the blade itself. My current preference is to hydrate the soap as much as I can while it still maintains slickness and is whipped to the consistency of... perhaps between cotton candy and whipped cream. I found that when it's like that:
- I can feel the razor itself,
- hair is evicted with lather more effectively, also reducing clogging in general,
- it requires less soap, which means that harsher soaps aren't as drying and less agitation is required for face lathering.

What I'm getting it at is that with a tweak to lather and technique, razors with a built-in angle guide can remarkably easy to handle even when they have minimal blade exposure, at least in my experience.

What a post

 

[J-B-M]

To my surprise, so far all of my testers prefer the longer handle claiming it's more comfy to operate.

View attachment 158341

That is a surprise, but the weight distribution and overall mass will not be the same with a 3D printed handle. We have been having quite a lot of conversation about handle length / materials and balance points over the past couple of days in the other place. Personally, I am an 85mm SS handle man through and through!

It occurs to me that your head may have more material than some other stainless heads due to the additional blade support, therefore an important consideration is not just handle length, but also balance points. If the head is heavy then, all other factors being equal, the balance point moves further towards it. So, the handles would need to be of a diameter that allowed enough material to provide an appropriate counter balance to the weight of the razor head. This may be why people are prefering the longer handle, because it has more material to offset the weight of the head. Just a theory!

Where should the balance point be? Well, having just measured a few 85mm handles on different razors (with the heads attached), the balance point seems to be about 30 mm from the top of the handle, although it is worth noting that upon measuring several handles that are nominally 85mm, I found most of them closer to 87mm. I would have though that if the balance point moved upward by about 5mm that wouldn't be a deal breaker, but more than that might make the razor feel a bit weird compared to what people are used to.

 

[Randy]

Dawid, have you think of the price of the final razor or not yet?

 

[Nord Razors]

That is a surprise, but the weight distribution and overall mass will not be the same with a 3D printed handle. We have been having quite a lot of conversation about handle length / materials and balance points over the past couple of days in the other place. Personally, I am an 85mm SS handle man through and through!

It occurs to me that your head may have more material than some other stainless heads due to the additional blade support, therefore an important consideration is not just handle length, but also balance points. If the head is heavy then, all other factors being equal, the balance point moves further towards it. So, the handles would need to be of a diameter that allowed enough material to provide an appropriate counter balance to the weight of the razor head. This may be why people are prefering the longer handle, because it has more material to offset the weight of the head. Just a theory!

The mass will not be same with 3D printed ones, as you said the difference will be massive. However, not the distribution as it should be exactly same - that's one of reasons why I print these razors with 100% infill.

My head is actually not that heavy at all compared to other SS ones. I knew it might be a problem if too heavy, so my goal was to be below 30 g, and right now I am at 29,4 g It was quite challenging, but I am happy with the result.
Regular Blackbird is around 34,5 g, so my design is lighter by nearly 15%.

Where should the balance point be? Well, having just measured a few 85mm handles on different razors (with the heads attached), the balance point seems to be about 30 mm from the top of the handle, although it is worth noting that upon measuring several handles that are nominally 85mm, I found most of them closer to 87mm. I would have though that if the balance point moved upward by about 5mm that wouldn't be a deal breaker, but more than that might make the razor feel a bit weird compared to what people are used to.

That is great input, thank you!

Measuring the four handles I came up with, balance is at follows (as you proposed, measured from the top of a handle):
- 85 mm hollow, 41 g, CoG 24,2 mm
- 100 mm hollow, 49 g, CoG 30,9 mm
- 85 mm solid, 67 g, CoG 30,4 mm
- 100 mm solid, 80 g, CoG 37,6 mm

I guess these are actually quite nice result and very close to this what you provided.

Dawid, have you think of the price of the final razor or not yet?

I am in contact with two local workshops, but they still haven't provided proper estimations.
But I know for sure that it will not be cheap. Since it's supposed to be CNC machined, passivated, and electropolished 316L, the price tag will not be low. At the same time, it cannot be overpriced, so just in case I have a backup plan which is to manufacture razors outside of Sweden, but still in the EU where labour is much less expensive. An obvious choice would be e.g. Poland. Though, I would prefer to have it done locally, here in Sweden.

Another solution to decrease the cost is to order a large quantity at once, so I think that crowdfunding might be the best option for the project.

 

[Randy]

The mass will not be same with 3D printed ones, as you said the difference will be massive. However, not the distribution as it should be exactly same - that's one of reasons why I print these razors with 100% infill.

My head is actually not that heavy at all compared to other SS ones. I knew it might be a problem if too heavy, so my goal was to be below 30 g, and right now I am at 29,4 g It was quite challenging, but I am happy with the result.
Regular Blackbird is around 34,5 g, so my design is lighter by nearly 15%.



That is great input, thank you!

Measuring the four handles I came up with, balance is at follows (as you proposed, measured from the top of a handle):
- 85 mm hollow, 41 g, CoG 24,2 mm
- 100 mm hollow, 49 g, CoG 30,9 mm
- 85 mm solid, 67 g, CoG 30,4 mm
- 100 mm solid, 80 g, CoG 37,6 mm

I guess these are actually quite nice result and very close to this what you provided.



I am in contact with two local workshops, but they still haven't provided proper estimations.
But I know for sure that it will not be cheap. Since it's supposed to be CNC machined, passivated, and electropolished 316L, the price tag will not be low. At the same time, it cannot be overpriced, so just in case I have a backup plan which is to manufacture razors outside of Sweden, but still in the EU where labour is much less expensive. An obvious choice would be e.g. Poland. Though, I would prefer to have it done locally, here in Sweden.

Another solution to decrease the cost is to order a large quantity at once, so I think that crowdfunding might be the best option for the project.

Then we must wait something between 250-400€ I believe. Definitely more than a Blackbird. Thank God I will have the opportunity to test even the 3D

 

[Nord Razors]

Then we must wait something between 250-400€ I believe. Definitely more than a Blackbird. Thank God I will have the opportunity to test even the 3D

I wish to have it available for around 250 € for the basic set which would be one baseplate and the short, solid handle. That's the price range I am chasing, but I really don't know how it's going to turn out.
I am also considering to add electropolishing as an option, what could decrease the cost by around 25-40 €.

 

[bartje-p]

Have you considered brass as another option to decrease the price? I am a big fan of brass razors and their price range. Or perhaps offer both options (I know there are people who certainly DON'T like brass razors too).

ps: on a personal note: the amount I am willing to pay for any razor lies approx around €100-150. What I seem to have noticed in my 5 years of shaving is that there are a lot of razors beyond that range. But you are aiming more at looks/sensation/feel/exclusivity versus rationale when you enter price ranges above that. And I think you will exclude a lot of possible customers then? Just saying ;-)

 

[Ventastic]

Just to offer a diverging opinion. I am not a fan of locked in shave angles. The Henson for me was a one and done razor. Somehow it takes away from the fun. If you manage to offer a razor that can operate at a variety of angles and never feel uncomfortable or bite, then it will be interesting for both beginners and seasoned wet shavers.

Regarding price. If you want to appeal to the majority of wet shavers, you'll need a cheaper option. As for me, if I like it during the testing phase then €250 for a more luxurious version probably won't hold me back

 

[Nord Razors]

Have you considered brass as another option to decrease the price? I am a big fan of brass razors and their price range. Or perhaps offer both options (I know there are people who certainly DON'T like brass razors too).

Of course, I have, and I hope to make one someday.
I read a thread where people voted on what material razors they preferred the most. The majority chose stainless steel, followed by brass. That's one of the reasons why stainless steel seems to be the best option to start with, even though it’s more expensive than brass. I only wish to have an opportunity to offer other materials in the future.

ps: on a personal note: the amount I am willing to pay for any razor lies approx around €100-150. What I seem to have noticed in my 5 years of shaving is that there are a lot of razors beyond that range. But you are aiming more at looks/sensation/feel/exclusivity versus rationale when you enter price ranges above that. And I think you will exclude a lot of possible customers then? Just saying ;-)

That's absolutely correct, many shavers will be excluded, I do realize that.
These are difficult decisions to take, but I need to settle somewhere quite soon. I am still searching for the answers, so I really appreciate comments like yours.

 

[J-B-M]

You have thought of everything!

Measuring the four handles I came up with, balance is at follows (as you proposed, measured from the top of a handle):
- 85 mm hollow, 41 g, CoG 24,2 mm
- 100 mm hollow, 49 g, CoG 30,9 mm
- 85 mm solid, 67 g, CoG 30,4 mm
- 100 mm solid, 80 g, CoG 37,6 mm

That sounds like an excellent range of options.

Rather than brass, how about aluminium? This seems to appeal to a cohort of shavers who want to save money and / or are used to light razors having started with Henson or similar.

On price, 200 Euro would be getting to the top of my comfort zone, but if you were putting out Lambda levels of quality / finish then I would go a little over.

 

[Nord Razors]

Rather than brass, how about aluminium? This seems to appeal to a cohort of shavers who want to save money and / or are used to light razors having started with Henson or similar.

I am not a fan of aluminum razors. They feel way too light, and the material is quite soft too. Brass is not hard either, but at least it is hefty.

On price, 200 Euro would be getting to the top of my comfort zone, but if you were putting out Lambda levels of quality / finish then I would go a little over.

In terms of level of quality, it must be a top notch execution. I don't imagine anything else in that price range.
However, details presented by Lambda (engravings and fancy recesses) are exceptional and unattainable if the cost matters. For context, Ares V2 in 316L costs €340, and Athena in 316L costs €350.


I hear you though, so I have already made some adjustments. I think going for 316L might be an overkill, I believe 304L is more than enough.
It's cheaper compared to 314L, and it's better in terms of machinability too. Its corrosion resistance is not as high as 316L, but no one is going to shave in salty water (at least not every day).
Blackbird is made out of 303, which is less corrosion resistant than 304L, and these razors are doing perfectly fine.

I also sent a quotation request to six Polish companies to have a comparison with Swedish ones.

 

[Chris]

I am not a fan of aluminum razors. They feel way too light, and the material is quite soft too. Brass is not hard either, but at least it is hefty.



In terms of level of quality, it must be a top notch execution. I don't imagine anything else in that price range.
However, details presented by Lambda (engravings and fancy recesses) are exceptional and unattainable if the cost matters. For context, Ares V2 in 316L costs €340, and Athena in 316L costs €350.


I hear you though, so I have already made some adjustments. I think going for 316L might be an overkill, I believe 304L is more than enough.
It's cheaper compared to 314L, and it's better in terms of machinability too. Its corrosion resistance is not as high as 316L, but no one is going to shave in salty water (at least not every day).
Blackbird is made out of 303, which is less corrosion resistant than 304L, and these razors are doing perfectly fine.

I also sent a quotation request to six Polish companies to have a comparison with Swedish ones.

316 is definitely overkill for a razor, 303 is plenty good enough. 303 gets used for things like bollards that are exposed to the elements 24/7, a razor that gets wet for a few minutes once a day will be fine.

As for brass no, it's not hard, but for a razor it's hard enough. I have a couple of Gillettes that are about a century old and they're still in excellent condition.