Understanding DE safety razors parameters

[spacemonkey42]

Is it possible that your messages counter got restarted due to long inactivity?

What I noticed is that the blade feel always goes together with efficiency. Depending on different parameters, this correlation is weaker or stronger, but in general, the bigger efficiency, the bigger the blade feel.
There are other parameters which allow to tune the blade feel (e.g., cap and guard spans), but the exposure definitely plays the major role here.

I actually changed my mind slightly when it comes to the blade feel, and lately have been aiming for rather low/medium one. Even though I still enjoy a strong blade feel, I found that smoothness is the most important factor of shaving, which to me is being decreased if the blade feel is too big.

I haven't posted here much, so my counter is probably right. Oh well, I'll hang out here a bit more. Hopefully you folks will put up with me.

I'm thrilled to hear you changed your mind on blade feel. I really, really do not like bladefeel and can't wait to try your razors, especially if you are going for low/medium. Of course you are right, that higher efficiency usually has higher blade feel. But less bladefeel doesn't have to mean low efficiency. I look for razors with good efficiency and low bladefeel. That requires a better design and better use of the parameters that you clearly articulated, @dawid. Great point about smoothness, that's exactly what I don't like about high bladefeel, all I sense is very uncomfortable scraping.

My favorite examples - the Athena, Le Maurice, and Henson aggressive are all in the medium efficiency range. None have much bladefeel when used properly, despite very different exposures. Zero for Athena, 0.05 for Le Maurice, 0.11 for the Henson. Much of that is because they all hold a very rigid blade edge.

 

[slapo]

We would need to distinguish the neutral blade angle (defined by the angle at which the razor blade is positioned w.r.t. the shaving plane), and the handle angle (defined by the angle at which the handle is positioned w.r.t. the shaving plane). I think sometimes these two completely different parameters are mixed.
In my testing I have always been referring to the neutral blade angle only.

Here comes the question though: what are the values for shallow (riding the cap) and steep (riding the guard) angles?
In my mind, it doesn't matter if the neutral blade angle is 20, 30, or 40 deg. I wouldn't call any of these neutral blade angles shallow or steep, because the neutral blade angle doesn't determine if riding a cap, or a guard is needed.

Let's take the 30 deg. neutral blade angle as an example, and let's assume that the range of the shaving angle for such a razor is +/- 5 deg.
It would mean that for this particular razor, the shallow angle is 25 deg, and the steep angle is 35 deg.

I might miss something that has already been "standardized" before, so I am curious to hear your opinion on that.

Well, what I was getting at in, perhaps, something of a roundabout way, was that the handle angle it important in terms of ergonomics for some (possibly many) people, and it in turn affects whether people can comfortably use the range of angles a razor offers.

I've noticed that people have a proclivity to hold razor handles in a particular way, and might not reconsider a change unless it's demoed to them - and sometimes not even then.

So even if a neutral angle means the blade angle would be at 30° and the range would be e.g. 45°-25°, if the user opts for a grip that wouldn't allow them to use the range, it doesn't much matter what the head offers.

 

[Nord Razors]

So even if a neutral angle means the blade angle would be at 30° and the range would be e.g. 45°-25°, if the user opts for a grip that wouldn't allow them to use the range, it doesn't much matter what the head offers.

That's absolutely right. While the handle angle doesn't strictly mean much in terms of the head performance, ergonomics matters a lot.
I actually struggled with it quite a bit, trying to find a sweet spot between various parameters and the handle angle. And as you actually pointed out in your previous post, modifying the bending radius is one way to play with it. I managed to settle at 36 degrees with the handle angle, and I am very happy with it, as it feels very natural and similar to other razors.

 

[spacemonkey42]

We would need to distinguish the neutral blade angle (defined by the angle at which the razor blade is positioned w.r.t. the shaving plane), and the handle angle (defined by the angle at which the handle is positioned w.r.t. the shaving plane). I think sometimes these two completely different parameters are mixed.
In my testing I have always been referring to the neutral blade angle only.

Here comes the question though: what are the values for shallow (riding the cap) and steep (riding the guard) angles?
In my mind, it doesn't matter if the neutral blade angle is 20, 30, or 40 deg. I wouldn't call any of these neutral blade angles shallow or steep, because the neutral blade angle doesn't determine if riding a cap, or a guard is needed.

Let's take the 30 deg. neutral blade angle as an example, and let's assume that the range of the shaving angle for such a razor is +/- 5 deg.
It would mean that for this particular razor, the shallow angle is 25 deg, and the steep angle is 35 deg.

I might miss something that has already been "standardized" before, so I am curious to hear your opinion on that.

Yes, discussions get confusing when people don't use angle correctly (often getting steep and shallow backwards) and when they don't define what they are talking about. I completely agree, the angle that matters for shaving is the angle of the blade on your skin. That is not same as the angle of the handle to the face.

Adding to what you are saying - "neutral" is defined by each individual razor's design. One can try to shave at that angle or can choose to go steep or shallow of that. That is all relative to that individual razor's neutral. I try to say things like "a bit shallow of neutral" because it seems like others could better relate to that terminology.

Something else for us to realize - our hands are not precision protractors. 6 degrees is equivalent to 1 tick of the seconds hand on a watch face. Knowing that, does anyone really think they can operate a razor to the precision of a degree? To even several degrees? I know I can not hold a razor so precisely that I could follow every curve of my face with less of an angle change than the tick of a second hand on a watch. So that means that I am regularly varying by 6 degrees, likely more. That's why I don't say shave at a 25 degree angle, I can't see inside the head and I am surely not able to keep that constant.

 

[spacemonkey42]

That's absolutely right. While the handle angle doesn't strictly mean much in terms of the head performance, ergonomics matters a lot.
I actually struggled with it quite a bit, trying to find a sweet spot between various parameters and the handle angle. And as you actually pointed out in your previous post, modifying the bending radius is one way to play with it. I managed to settle at 36 degrees with the handle angle, and I am very happy with it, as it feels very natural and similar to other razors.

Thanks for expanding on blade angle vs handle angle, many don't think that through. Blade bending radius is a great way to change the blade vs handle angle difference. I do my best to learn what angle the razor works best at - I do not try to force the razor to work at an angle I like to hold it. That's a challenge when I switch razors, I have to adjust to each one.

 

[Nord Razors]

Something else for us to realize - our hands are not precision protractors. 6 degrees is equivalent to 1 tick of the seconds hand on a watch face. Knowing that, does anyone really think they can operate a razor to the precision of a degree? To even several degrees? I know I can not hold a razor so precisely that I could follow every curve of my face with less of an angle change than the tick of a second hand on a watch. So that means that I am regularly varying by 6 degrees, likely more. That's why I don't say shave at a 25 degree angle, I can't see inside the head and I am surely not able to keep that constant.

Yes! I am on the same page with that, and that's why I prefer razors with a high range of the shaving angle. It's just easier for me, and shaving is less irritating, as I am not loosing the angle that often.
To add to that, longer handles also help to improve the control, especially if the balance doesn't change (short and solid vs. long and hollow).

 

[Johnny Bravo]

Reported so bugger off again.