Sourdough anyone?

captain_hx

Thalassophile
It should be good for baking as it is and it will get more active if you continue feeding it daily.

For best results, your are looking for a fully active starter (at it's peak) before incorporating in the dough.
 

halvor

a most elusive fish
My first ever sour dough bread made this morning. High percentage of whole grain spelt and wheat plus seeds. Can’t fault it on looks, but it’s a) too moist, and b) too sour. Moist I can work out with ratio of flour to water in the dough, I suppose, but acidity calls for more advanced measures in the starter. Experience there, oh captain my @captain_hx ? Several pointers here, incl higher flour to water ratio in the starter (firmer), less whole grain - more white flour, less fermentation time, and lower temp (but it’s not like it’s 30+ in my home anyway, and I do want the yeast to grow).

E7375A03-53F5-4D8B-8C39-E0235F0988C7.jpeg
5A1459A9-0EA0-47B2-A8CD-63BA6B35F04E.jpeg
 

captain_hx

Thalassophile
I have never tried baking a loaf of bread with high percentage of whole grain flour. Usually I keep wholegrains at 30%. I believe that wholegrain bread needs a long period of autolyse but as stated above I have never baked such bread. Likewise, when i use spelt flour, I also keep it at low percentage ~10%.

Sourdough culture is a living thing and it's influenced by many parameters like temperature, flour, kneading, rest periods, baking time, just to name a few. So there are many things that can go wrong when baking sourdough. A process of trial and error is needed until you get to the desired results.

The tips on the link you provided are solid. The sourness of your young culture will settle down if you continue the feeding schedule. Sourdough gets better with time.
 

halvor

a most elusive fish
I’m getting there. And/or the starter is. Made one big loaf plus this little cocotte version for my daughter. Less whole grain than the first, much less sour starter, and instead of using two spoons of potent sh*t starter, I made a pre-dough (levain?) this time. It may look dry from this pic, but I assure you it’s not. It’s also got those nice sourdough air pockets.
473C6E17-763F-4799-8F91-8B669305B994.jpeg
 
Well done Halvor, Bra Jobbet ! Looks great.:thumbsup:
Just thought I'd share my bread related antics from the other day..an 80/20 mix of white and wholemeal flour plus seeds.
Forgive the usual appalling photos but you get the idea. This is a really simple bread to make every few days (depending how much bread you eat of course).

 

slapo

It's... alive!
I've made a starter several times from scratch... and they all caught mold (except for those made from barley flour), because flatmates like to let things get mouldy in the fridge. And that was pretty much in every place I lived.
I made mine from wholegrain rye flour (3-4 times), wholegrain wheat flour (once or twice) and barley flour (once or twice).
Rye is was the easiest to start - it was usually quite alive on the second day already, bubbly and happy. It also remained more active than the other ones I made.
Wheat... kind of meh. It might've been the flour, but it was the most difficult one to start and keep active.
Barley was fairly close to rye in how active it had been and how easy it was to start.

My process:
1. day: 50g flour + 50g water
2. day: previous day's amount + 50g flour + 50g water (i.e. double it what you had from the previous day)
3. day: previous day's amount + 100g flour + 100g water (i.e. double it again). If it's not active with rye or barley at this point... you might have a problem.
4. day: previous day's amount + 200g flour + 200g water (i.e. double it again). Even wheat should be pretty active now.
5. day: take half away and try baking it (or making flatbreads from it). Double the remaining amount, put it in the fridge.
...
12. day: it should now be gently active, either smelling pretty boozy or pretty fragrant... it varies. Repeat day 5 every on this day and every ~7 days.

To have it mature faster, repeat day 5 for a week. Even if you're on your own, it should be

Bread: I like my starter to make all of the preferment (sort of) - I tend to make loaves from 400g of flour, so to half of my starter, I add 200g of flour and 50 - 100g water and let it rise overnight at room temperature. A couple of folds during the first hour of fermentation (as suggested by Ken Forkish) does some very nice things to it.
In the morning, I add salt (1.5-2 tea spoons), caraway seeds, mix it in, shape it, let it rest while the oven's heating up (20-30 minutes).
Bake in something that has a lid for ~70 minutes (give or take 5 for wetter/drier dough) at 230 degrees Celsius. Pyrex bowls rock for this, as you can see at least the top of the bread.
Let it rest for at least half an hour before digging in (ideally, it would cool down so it's barely warm to the touch).

Notes:
Barley sourdough flatbreads made from just the starter are pretty tart, but I still really liked them.
Rye... nuttiest and earthiest. Probably the smallest, but also the most even air pockets in the bread.
Wheat... eh, well, it's OK.

Unfortunately, I seem to have developed a bit of intolerance to rye, which was also my favourite. It's better if I make my own sourdough, but I haven't been able to for a while now. :-(

I also made cake of sorts from gram flour, but that requires a special approach to rise, in my experience.

Is this post too long? ;-)
 

halvor

a most elusive fish
Well done Halvor, Bra Jobbet ! Looks great.:thumbsup:
Just thought I'd share my bread related antics from the other day..an 80/20 mix of white and wholemeal flour plus seeds.
Forgive the usual appalling photos but you get the idea. This is a really simple bread to make every few days (depending how much bread you eat of course).

Never thought I’d say this to another man, and probably sounds (even?) worse in Norwegian, but that’s a nice loaf you got there :surrender: LOL.

Too fine for me, though, I make and buy at least 50% whole grain (or minimum three quarter pie as it were, preferably full, on the Norwegian bread indication scale).
 

Nishy

Forum GOD!
Staff member
I’m getting there. And/or the starter is. Made one big loaf plus this little cocotte version for my daughter. Less whole grain than the first, much less sour starter, and instead of using two spoons of potent sh*t starter, I made a pre-dough (levain?) this time. It may look dry from this pic, but I assure you it’s not. It’s also got those nice sourdough air pockets.
View attachment 44502
Wow looks excellent!
 

halvor

a most elusive fish
I've made a starter several times from scratch... and they all caught mold (except for those made from barley flour), because flatmates like to let things get mouldy in the fridge. And that was pretty much in every place I lived.
I made mine from wholegrain rye flour (3-4 times), wholegrain wheat flour (once or twice) and barley flour (once or twice).
Rye is was the easiest to start - it was usually quite alive on the second day already, bubbly and happy. It also remained more active than the other ones I made.
Wheat... kind of meh. It might've been the flour, but it was the most difficult one to start and keep active.
Barley was fairly close to rye in how active it had been and how easy it was to start.

My process:
1. day: 50g flour + 50g water
2. day: previous day's amount + 50g flour + 50g water (i.e. double it what you had from the previous day)
3. day: previous day's amount + 100g flour + 100g water (i.e. double it again). If it's not active with rye or barley at this point... you might have a problem.
4. day: previous day's amount + 200g flour + 200g water (i.e. double it again). Even wheat should be pretty active now.
5. day: take half away and try baking it (or making flatbreads from it). Double the remaining amount, put it in the fridge.
...
12. day: it should now be gently active, either smelling pretty boozy or pretty fragrant... it varies. Repeat day 5 every on this day and every ~7 days.

To have it mature faster, repeat day 5 for a week. Even if you're on your own, it should be

Bread: I like my starter to make all of the preferment (sort of) - I tend to make loaves from 400g of flour, so to half of my starter, I add 200g of flour and 50 - 100g water and let it rise overnight at room temperature. A couple of folds during the first hour of fermentation (as suggested by Ken Forkish) does some very nice things to it.
In the morning, I add salt (1.5-2 tea spoons), caraway seeds, mix it in, shape it, let it rest while the oven's heating up (20-30 minutes).
Bake in something that has a lid for ~70 minutes (give or take 5 for wetter/drier dough) at 230 degrees Celsius. Pyrex bowls rock for this, as you can see at least the top of the bread.
Let it rest for at least half an hour before digging in (ideally, it would cool down so it's barely warm to the touch).

Notes:
Barley sourdough flatbreads made from just the starter are pretty tart, but I still really liked them.
Rye... nuttiest and earthiest. Probably the smallest, but also the most even air pockets in the bread.
Wheat... eh, well, it's OK.

Unfortunately, I seem to have developed a bit of intolerance to rye, which was also my favourite. It's better if I make my own sourdough, but I haven't been able to for a while now. :-(

I also made cake of sorts from gram flour, but that requires a special approach to rise, in my experience.

Is this post too long? ;-)
I like long posts! Thanks :)

Question though: you keep adding to the dough without reducing for the first few days? The starter you keep in the fridge is of substantial size iow? Does this make a difference to the acidity level? (Mine is currently kept at 50+100+100g when feeding, so 1-2-2 of starter, fresh flour and water. It was started with rye but gradually and increasingly now more white wheat and some whole grain wheat or spelt.)

Second, this means that the starter is a significant share of the final dough for your bread. I’ve used a much larger share of fresh flour in the dough, with starter at maybe 20-25% for the last bread I made. What difference does this make?
 

slapo

It's... alive!
Question though: you keep adding to the dough without reducing for the first few days? The starter you keep in the fridge is of substantial size iow? Does this make a difference to the acidity level? (Mine is currently kept at 50+100+100g when feeding, so 1-2-2 of starter, fresh flour and water. It was started with rye but gradually and increasingly now more white wheat and some whole grain wheat or spelt.)
Yep, I try not to waste anything, so for the first four days, I just keep adding stuff. The starter is then kept fairly large. As far as I can tell, it had no perceivable level on acidity level.
From what I had read over the past few years, it's mostly the ratio of flour and water that affects the acidity level in an existing starter. More water than flour would make it more acidic, more flour than water nuttier/earthier and less acidic.
Prior to that (i.e. when starting the starter), it would be the flour used and how lucky you get with yeast strains. Also any additives used, if any (fruits, veg or vinegar, for example).
I have only experimented with started of mixed flours once and wasn't very happy with the results. It's like the rye yeast I caught didn't like wheat whatsoever.

Second, this means that the starter is a significant share of the final dough for your bread. I’ve used a much larger share of fresh flour in the dough, with starter at maybe 20-25% for the last bread I made. What difference does this make?
Digestibility (more carbohydrates and gluten broken down) and more flavour/stronger taster.
The former, as far as I can tell, means lesser rise of the loaf. This combined with me using only wholemeal flour, it also means very even bubbles, although usually not particularly big.
The latter means that more of the character of the starter is imparted, assuming the same fermentation time as with a smaller amount of starter. Whether this is desirable would depend mostly on the starter or what you'd like to have the bread with.

Both above mentioned effects mean the loaf is stronger tasting per slice.
I like it that way. It pairs really nicely with even stronger tasting cheeses than normal bread, resulting in a more balanced flavour.
On the other hand, when combined with gentler tasting toppings, it makes for a richer taste that I find more satisfying as it also increses ingredient contrast.
Oh, and it's lovely with a good stew or popped into soup to thicken it.

I also tinkered with non-grain flours, but they're tricky (and I haven't made sourdough using those):
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/43652/chickpeabuckwheat-pie
 

halvor

a most elusive fish
Who said they had (had) a starter smelling of apple? Have kept this one in the wine cabinet at 12 degrees for the last week and it smells absolutely lovely of green apple, hint of grape — by chance or impacted by yeast from the wine one may wonder? Just fed it now, and a pre-dough underway for baking tonight.
905DA292-DCD8-4873-8225-2D2DF03FD04A.jpeg
 

halvor

a most elusive fish
Loads of experience scoffing it so if you need any help with that I’m your man. Other than that please keep us updated.
LOL, I must have been stoned* when I read this the first time. Somehow the takeaway was that you were experienced with baking and offered assistance. Well, you’re welcome over anytime, though I have to warn you, I’m no expert yet...

Disclaimer: figure of speech.
 
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slapo

It's... alive!
Mine is about 3-4 weeks old now and smells like... I may have to distill it at some point. ;-)
 
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