beb023
Guru
Scent is important, but not as important as cushion, glide, and skin repair.
DR Harris shaving soaps
- Thread starter beb023
- Start date
As good as DR Harris shave soap is in the cushion, glide and skin repair departments, I have found others that are as good for me in those departments at less cost. Personally, scent is a low priority with me. It is good enough, for me, that the scent is not objectionable to me so long as it is good in those other 3 departments.
It can be frustrating trying to use a shrunken Dr Harris soap refill that is shaped to fit the DR Harris dished bowl or old-style shaving scuttle. Mind you, that can be a problem with any hard soap that has shrunk in size to find a container that will securely hold the puck.
Bob
Don’t we all too, in the cold?
Sorry, but I couldn’t resist.
My opened puck that I've had for the best part of ten years has not lost its scent.
adrian ivanovici
Forum GOD!
Aren't they made by same supplier for ToBs?
pjgh
Forum GOD!
Crystal ball gazing ...
I think DRH is "safe" and will continue to be tallow-based going forwards. Why? Well, if you look at Captain Fawcett's historical ingredient list (taken from their website during 2023) it is the self-same ingredient list as DRH. Ergo, it's the same. Look now and we're seeing something different.
Captain Fawcett (2023)
Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Parfum (Fragrance), Coconut Acid, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Potassium Cocoate, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etridronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, O-Tolyl Biguanide, Linalool, Eugenol, Limonene, Petrolatum, Tetrasodium EDTA
Captain Fawcett (2024)
Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernal Acid, Potassium, Palm Kernelate, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, O-Tolyl Biguanide, Linalool, Eugenol, Limonene, Coumarin, Petrolatum, Tetrasodium EDTA, CI 77891
It is still tallow-based (yay!) but shows two ingredients which appear to be quite new to shaving soap formulations: Potassium Laurate & Sodium Laurate (which googling tells me are salts gleaned from coconut fatty acids). It might just be the new way of expressing "Coconut Fatty Acids" but the actual wording is new.
I believe we're seeing DRH's next formulation right there and the out of stock thing is while they run the old formula down. See Muhle < read on!
Flick over to TOBS, who (from an enquiry this very week) tell me that their Sandalwood formula is now not what it was only a very short while ago.
TOBS Sandalwood (up to 2023?)
Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Fatty Acid, Sodium Chloride, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Linalool, Coumarin, Geraniol, Limolene, Cinnamal, Citronellol, Benzyl Benzoate, Butylphenol Methylpropional, Citral, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)
TOBS Sandalwood (2024)
Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, Linalool, Coumarin, Geraniol, Eugenol, Limonene, Cinnamal, Citronellol, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)
... and look: Potassium Laurate & Sodium Laurate in place of the respective palm kernelates. Notice also a return to stearate-first formulation from a palmate-first trend which has held for a good decade. Likely, this is the move away from reliance upon palm, presumably as environmentally responsible stocks are a thing, but less than just raping the planet ... and so we continue to see some palm in the ingredients.
Notice also Muhle appear sold out across the board and are now listing their Grapefruit & Mint with a VERY similar stearate-first formulation with those laurates in the same place. Swing by Edwin Jagger to find ALL their soaps are now listing this new formulation but with a slight variation on where the water sits in the list ... and check out Speick, who (yes) also have the same formulation now which has changed from what they had only a month or so ago.
Check your veg Tabac ingredient list. I think they were the first to move to this stearate-first and laurate ingredient list:
Tabac (c.2023?)
Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Glycerin, Aqua, Parfum, Lauric Acid, Limonene, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal, CI 77891, Isoeugenol, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Citronellol, Coumarin, Benzyl Alcohol, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Geraniol, Benzyl Salicylate, Cinnamyl Alcohol, Citral, Eugenol
MWF have moved across to what is practically T&H's palmate-first formulation but with the addition of Lanolin. Scottish Fine Soaps, too (but with Cannabis Seed Oil < yuk!). I doubt they'll want to move to yet another formulation too soon, but no doubt it'll happen. I am very hopeful for Trumpers, though, who might see the light finally and move off that foamy crap they insist on sticking with!
TLDR? I think we're seeing a new epoch of stearate-first and less palm across the board. I'll say again that I think DRH will remain tallow-based as we're seeing this trend already in Captain Fawcett's silent reformulation which continues to be tallow-based. Yes, I think that will be the next DRH formulation.
All guesswork, of course ... and I might be joining dots which don't join together, but I do think I'm seeing a trend here.
Last edited:
My go to Harris soap is their tallow-based Lavender shave stick. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that they don’t spoil a good thing. After over 40 years of use I have abandoned TOBS and GFT soaps and creams because of their lousy performance following reformulation. I’m hoarding an old stick of Tabac and Speick just to be safe.
chazt
Forum !
Great post. Thank you
Wickham-Soap-Co
Happy Shaving!
Hi Paul, while it's a good opportunity for these companies to reformulate, I think you'll find all these reformulations are because of the recent ban of Pentasodium Pentetate. The EU cosmetics industry had been given an off-shelf deadline of 1st December 2023 to remove all products from sale containing Pentasodium Pentetate.
EU to outlaw seven INCI cosmetic ingredients from December
The European Union has published a list of seven ingredients with INCI names to be banned in cosmetic products from 1 December 2023.
Most Palm Oil and butters available to the cosmetic industry are from (RSPO) managed producers. I find it odd that the cosmetic industry is considered bad for using Palm while very little attention is given to the food industry who consumes the majority of it. I read somewhere that the food sector uses 70% of annual production, while cosmetic industry was below 20%.
A quick search returned this.
"Until recently, the global processed food industry consumed approximately 72 per cent of all
palm oil production; the personal care and cleaning products industry consumed 18 per cent;
and the biofuel industry consumed the remaining 10 per cent. More recent data, however,
suggest that biofuel use, especially in Asia, is now the fastest growing area of demand for
palm oil. Nearly a quarter of global palm oil consumption is now for biofuels, despite declining
demand in Europe."
Source: https://www.fern.org/fileadmin/uplo..._production_comsumption_and_trade_pattern.pdf
Also, Paul, the TOBS Sandalwood (2024) ingredients list you posted also has palm in it still. Don't know if this was an oversight, I've highlighted them in bold font. My guess being, it was a mistake as they are after the fragrance, which would seem too far down the ingredient list for Palm.
Last edited:
pjgh
Forum GOD!
Hi Darron @Wickham-Soap-Co - Thanks a million for your (certainly more qualified) insight into my pattern gazing! Brill!
Ah, ha! So, it's the Pentasodium Pentetate that's irking the EU. Looking back at some historical posts, I'm finding the Tabac and Speick reformulations in 2021 to be very similar indeed and that current Edwin Jagger (certainly) and Muhle are very closely related in terms of ingredient lists. That Edwin Jagger & Muhle are close does not surprise me ... and that all of this bunch appear to be from the same (German? Polish? Czechia?) producer.
I have to say, when I first got the reply from TOBS I simply didn't believe them because what they sent me bore no relation to any pictures of their products (the Sandalwood) and that formulation is relatively new and not massively google-able without searching for bits of it.
But, I can see a very clear relation to the Muhle formulation and so we guess TOBS have "gone over" and moved away from whoever it is that supplies the London Cartel. Culmak? I copied and pasted verbatim and the continued presence of palm (and yes, that far down) is interesting. But is it a mistake?
Check out Captain Fawcett's current ingredient list:
Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernal Acid, Potassium, Palm Kernelate, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, O-Tolyl Biguanide, Linalool, Eugenol, Limonene, Coumarin, Petrolatum, Tetrasodium EDTA, CI 77891
Side-by-side with TOBS Sandalwood (2024)
Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, Linalool, Coumarin, Geraniol, Eugenol, Limonene, Cinnamal, Citronellol, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)
... basically, some of that palm is in the same place after the fragrance. Interesting? Maybe "just a touch of palm for the Brits, eh?".
When I've been comparing ingredient lists, I've been looking predominantly at everything down to the fragrance, getting a general feeling that everything after that is a stabiliser, scent fixative or dye. Is that about right?
Ah, ha! So, it's the Pentasodium Pentetate that's irking the EU. Looking back at some historical posts, I'm finding the Tabac and Speick reformulations in 2021 to be very similar indeed and that current Edwin Jagger (certainly) and Muhle are very closely related in terms of ingredient lists. That Edwin Jagger & Muhle are close does not surprise me ... and that all of this bunch appear to be from the same (German? Polish? Czechia?) producer.
I have to say, when I first got the reply from TOBS I simply didn't believe them because what they sent me bore no relation to any pictures of their products (the Sandalwood) and that formulation is relatively new and not massively google-able without searching for bits of it.
But, I can see a very clear relation to the Muhle formulation and so we guess TOBS have "gone over" and moved away from whoever it is that supplies the London Cartel. Culmak? I copied and pasted verbatim and the continued presence of palm (and yes, that far down) is interesting. But is it a mistake?
Check out Captain Fawcett's current ingredient list:
Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernal Acid, Potassium, Palm Kernelate, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, O-Tolyl Biguanide, Linalool, Eugenol, Limonene, Coumarin, Petrolatum, Tetrasodium EDTA, CI 77891
Side-by-side with TOBS Sandalwood (2024)
Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, Linalool, Coumarin, Geraniol, Eugenol, Limonene, Cinnamal, Citronellol, CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)
... basically, some of that palm is in the same place after the fragrance. Interesting? Maybe "just a touch of palm for the Brits, eh?".
When I've been comparing ingredient lists, I've been looking predominantly at everything down to the fragrance, getting a general feeling that everything after that is a stabiliser, scent fixative or dye. Is that about right?
pjgh
Forum GOD!
Curious that Edwin Jagger's seemingly very recently reformulation still contains Pentasodium Pentetate. I guess they'll silently move over to one which replaces with Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate as per Muhle ... and TOBS latest.Hi Paul, while it's a good opportunity for these companies to reformulate, I think you'll find all these reformulations are because of the recent ban of Pentasodium Pentetate. The EU cosmetics industry had been given an off-shelf deadline of 1st December 2023 to remove all products from sale containing Pentasodium Pentetate.
EU to outlaw seven INCI cosmetic ingredients from December
The European Union has published a list of seven ingredients with INCI names to be banned in cosmetic products from 1 December 2023.www.personalcaremagazine.com
Wickham-Soap-Co
Happy Shaving!
Yes, that is an odd one indeed, Paul. Why have a controversial ingredient in your product at such low amounts? Maybe it's down to the way the soap is manufactured.
Well spotted. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the UK have yet to follow suit to the EU's ruling, though it will happen soon, if not already being put in place. True, they will probably switch over to the plant derived chelating agent, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate, as many have already done.